Tuesday, September 29, 2009

What is that supposed to mean?

We ran into some old friends earlier this week at a school thing. We caught up and exchanged pleasantries, and it was really good to see them!

As the conversation was coming to a close, my wife says, "Tell them what you're doing now at the church." Uhh....OK.

So, I explained that my new role is Married Couples Pastor, and that the former Couples Pastor is now serving as the Spiritual Growth Pastor. He'll be developing small group curriculum, devotionals for quiet time and reflection during the week, and creating some seminar series, such as Old and New Testament classes to help people develop a deeper understanding of scripture.

Our friend responds by saying, "You know what...that's why we left the church. There wasn't anything for mature Christians."

The program was beginning, and the conversation ended abruptly, and I was left stunned. My friend's comments echoed in my mind..."There wasn't anything for mature Christians."

What does that even mean? You want to know what I think it means for most people? It means they believe that spiritual maturity is sitting and listening and learning. Gaining knowledge.

But, is knowledge maturity? Hardly.

Ed Young, Jr. is Founding Pastor at Fellowship Church in the Dallas/ Fort Worth area. He made the comment one time that it's actually the self-proclaimed "mature" Christians who are the real "babies" when it comes to spiritual growth. In Young's words, they sit at the table and cry and whine and scream, "Feed me! Feed me!" He demonstrated this in a sermon by sitting in an adult-sized high-chair wearing a baby bib. Pretty good stuff.

Ed Young says that a lot of Christians mistakenly think they are ready to wade in the deep end of the pool, but really need to continue to hang out in the shallow end. Young added, "When I can master loving God with all my heart, and loving my neighbor as myself, maybe I'll go a little bit deeper."

With so many ways to serve others - both at church and in the community - how can someone ever say, "There isn't anything for mature Christians?"

You know what? You can easily identify the truly mature believers. They're the ones on the front lines, serving and loving others. They are the ones who never complain, and who understand that Jesus' message isn't just for them. They aren't consumers. They're inverstors. They're not takers, they're givers. They aren't listeners, they're doers.

How do you define spiritual maturity? By knowledge, or by showing God's love to those desperate to find the true meaning of life?

37 comments:

Anonymous said...

I understand what they're saying. That's the problem with the new age church. The gospel is not clearly proclaimed. I think that people are falsly converted by a sob story. God just didn't pick-up our dinner tab! If they are truly converted they just get fed a little bit of milk for years and years. They can't grow and they stay babies. Today's purpose driven pastors just try to relate and be a friend to the audience so they don't offend anyone. "Let's talk about sports" No, I want to talk about my Lord and Savior! We need Pastors to be led by the Spirit and then to lead the church. Be a Shepherd! We need genuine spiritual leaders that are called by God. Feed the people with milk then meat. People don't need colorful worldly themes... they need the word of God. Faith comes by hearing His word. We are in great need of spiritual obedience.

Unknown said...

Hey - thanks for the comment! I don't disagree with what you are saying. We all need to hear spiritual truth and be challenged to live according to God's word and to follow the example of His son. But, I don't think this is solely the church's responsibility, nor can it be accomplished solely by coming to a Sunday morning worship service. Faith requires action, not knowledge. You also have to consider that different methods must be used to reach different personalities. The vast majority of people will never walk through the doors to hear a "hellfire and brimstone" type of message. I wouldn't. People want to see that the church is culturally relevant. God's word is always active and relevant. But, the church must continue to move forward with society, and be able to speak to people on their own terms at times. What good is the "meatiest" of believers if he or she cannot serve others? Bodybuilders may look good and feel healthy, but they are not the most mobile or agile of specimens. Just my thoughts.

Robert Ingle said...

It's hard to know what they are saying without knowing them. If I had made that statement here is what I would mean by it:

Bible 101 is quite a bit different from Bible 451. I agree wholeheartely with our need to serve others, and we all do that in our own way. We also need to be fed spiritually from time to time in order to continue to grow.

I personally would be unable to be a regular at a church that was lacking Bible 451.

Robert Ingle said...

...so maybe your friends will be returning now that their perceived problem is being address.

Robert Ingle said...

How do you define spiritual maturity? By knowledge, or by showing God's love to those desperate to find the true meaning of life?

Both are important.

Robert Ingle said...

That's the problem with the new age church. The gospel is not clearly proclaimed.

Northstar is definitly not what I would consider a "new age" church, not that there is anything wrong with "new age" churches. You are correct, the gospel is not clearly proclaimed because it was not clearly written. Let's be honest for a moment. If it was in fact clearly written, there wouldn't be any disagreement and division within the church would there? There are many different interpretations of what the Bible means and there are different interpretations of what the gospel is. I have mine and you have yours but that is completely okay.

Today's purpose driven pastors just try to relate and be a friend to the audience so they don't offend anyone.

Let's be real. The church is as market driven as any other organization in the private sector. If you aren't giving people what they need, they are going to stop availing themselves of you services. This may sound harsh, but that is reality. People have spiritual needs and if they aren't being met, they go elsewhere.

Robert Ingle said...

And Clendmik, I would add that if your gospel (i.e. good news) is offending people, then you might want to consider whether you're preaching the true gospel. Think about it.

Anonymous said...

Roy, I'm curious to know what denomination you are. What is the gospel to you? What Bible(s) do you use? Thanks!

Robert Ingle said...

My denomination is Roy, R-O-Y.

The gospel is that the kingdom is at hand, if fact it is closer at hand than most imagine it to be. It is within us.

I have many translations of the Bible on my shelf.

Anonymous said...

R-O-Y, so If I wasn't a Christian then how would you witness to me? Is there more than one way to heaven? I'm wondering what bible so that I may follow along. Thanks

C.S. Sounds like your friends are just growing spiritually. The Holy Spirit creates the desire for the pure word. The bible says if you draw closer then I'll draw nearer. I think the word mature was probably not the best word that they could use to describe. Sounds like they were led out of a topical relevent church to pursue an expository church? Do you know where they went? I would be happy that they're growing and pray for them. Obviously they're being called to serve at another church. If someone asked me if I knew a mature Christian, only a very few names come to mind. One being Billy Graham and I'll just leave it at that. As we further our walk...God does give us discernment on peoples growth. We need discernment in order to be an effective witness, disciple and teacher. You are exactly right as far as serving but just don't be too quick to judge people if you don't see an obvious paticular way individuals serve. We all serve in different ways and all have different spiritual gifts to make up one body. Serving has to be spirit led. Knowledge IS wisdom. We are called to be wise. Wisdom is knowing the Lord. God is His word. The more you know of God, the more you love Him and learn about what He did for us. The spirit speaks to us through His word. So is wanting knowledge more important? I think so as this stage. Serving is soon to come though. Sooner in others than some I think. The first and two most important commandments...love God, love others. If you love God then you'll serve Him, if you love others then you'll serve them. The book of James speaks of putting off "self" so that we can become hearers and then doers of the spirit.

Robert Ingle said...

Clendmik, I couldn't have said it better. Thank you!

Robert Ingle said...

Wow C.A.! Your blog is generating more comments. Maybe I broke the ice with my comments about "Modest is Hottest". :-)

Robert Ingle said...

R-O-Y, so If I wasn't a Christian then how would you witness to me?

Very carefully. I would start by listening to you talk about you and what you believe.

Robert Ingle said...

...talk about yourself, rather.

Then when you were done, I might employ the Socratic method to dig a bit deeper.

Robert Ingle said...

...and I would not be witnessing to you unless you *wanted* to be witnessed to by me.

Next question:

Is there more than one way to heaven?

Sorry to answer your question with a question, but how do you define "heaven"?

Robert Ingle said...

If someone asked me if I knew a mature Christian, only a very few names come to mind. One being Billy Graham and I'll just leave it at that.

Clendmik, you know Billy Graham? Wow! I'm not worthy. Can you introduce me to him? Oops, you don't know me do you? Oh well.

Robert Ingle said...

Oh yeah, I prefer the King James version since it matches up nicely with my Strongs concordance.

The NIV Interlinear Hebrew-English Old Testament is good too. Here is a fascinating bit of trivia that you probably know: What name does God prefer that he be called?

Robert Ingle said...

Or to restate the question more clearly: What did God first call himself when he talk to Moses from the bush?

Anonymous said...

Thanks for answering some of my questions as we are to test every spirit. I too use the Strong's and KJV. I'll try to be more specific. Our calling is to diciple and spread the good news to the ends of the earth. Jesus was sent to pave a way so that none should parish and have everlasting life with Him. Eternal absence from Him is eternal damnation. So to reword my question I'll just say is there more than one way to spend eternity with God and not face spiritual death? How can someone avoid spriritual death? How can a person get in the Ark to escape the flood? I hope that I can help plant a seed to anyone reading these blogs and not confuse.


I will study Exodus more in depth to try to answer your question about God's name.

Robert Ingle said...

So to reword my question I'll just say is there more than one way to spend eternity with God and not face spiritual death? How can someone avoid spriritual death? How can a person get in the Ark to escape the flood?

These are all interesting ways of rewording your original question but I'm afraid they do not actually clarify what you *really* mean. I think you would agree that if we are to have a fruitful discussion we must both understand what we are talking about.

Let me propose another way to ask the question:

Is there any other way to accomplish what Jesus attempted to accomplish other than to do what he did?

I think that is a very deep philosophical question that we cannot do justice in these comments.

What do you think he was attempting to accomplish?

Robert Ingle said...

I almost forgot to ask, C.A. Do you do marriage counselling in your new capacity? I think my wife may need some. :-)

How else would she be able to put up with a husband like me?

Robert Ingle said...

C.A. and Clendmik:

I hope you don't mind but I've invited a bunch of hopeless heretics and heathens from here:

http://de-conversion.com/

...to listen in on our discussion if they want too. Clendmik, you seem like a capable interlocutor. Others may benefit from your wisdom.

Unknown said...

I am honored that this topic has struck a nerve with you both...but I'd prefer to stay out of the fray. Thanks.

Robert Ingle said...

Well, that link didn't turn out too well. Let me try again:

http://de-conversion.com/

If that doesn't work, please copy and paste into your browser. The comments at that site may give you a bit more insight into who I am.

BTW, I was just kidding about the "hopeless heretics and heathens". If they are reading this, I'm sure they already know that. :-)

Robert Ingle said...

And I can't remember exactly what the context was at the moment, but it fit very well.

Anonymous said...

I don't think, "Take up your cross and follow me" will EVER be culturally relevent.


I think confidence has been lost with preaching God's word. Even Satan quoted scripture. Preachers today aren't using the Holy Spirit or are not being used by the Holy Spirit. Why is that? Is it like what you say Roy, is it just a marketing business these days. Are we to be relevent to Christ or Christ relevent to us? Is judgment not coming? Is the Great White Throne not real. Will names not be blotted out of the Book of Life? What was it ...9 people died in the 09 GA flood? Could have very well been a visitor in a local church recently. Did they hear a clear presentation about Jesus or did they hear a relevent story about how not to go to Angertown, Alabama.

Unknown said...

Clen, I'm gonna stop you there. I take exception to your comment regarding Angertown, AL. Have you ever been a part of NorthStar Church for any length of time? If not, you cannot possibly be critical. At NorthStar, we try our very best to lift up other churches and to support them. In fact, we recently teamed up with 14 other churches for a month-long sermon series entitled, "United." There were post-modern churches involved, but most were the so-called "traditional" churches. I say that because, in the words of Rick Warren, "it takes all kinds of churches to reach all kinds of people." Some preacher could be proclaiming the truth clearly about Jesus out the wazoo, but if it isn't effective, it falls on deaf ears. Maybe you need to read up a little more on Paul's tactics. He was a master at trying to find common ground with the gentiles in order to build a relationship with them. Believe it or not, it DOES require strategy to reach lost people. And a lot of prayer. I'd prefer if you not post anything else with respect to our church until you have been there for at least a few months and see for yourself exactly what we do to proclaim the good news and reach our community for Christ.

Robert Ingle said...

Good for you, C.A.!

Robert Ingle said...

Is it like what you say Roy, is it just a marketing business these days.

No, but that is definitely a part of it.

Robert Ingle said...

Please forgive me C.A. but the story was public, you were curious, you asked, and I answered without saying names. If I crossed a line, I apologize. I just think it was interesting that I just happened to be listening, that's all.

Robert Ingle said...

... and there may have been a part of that comment that pertained to the discussion "Clen" and I were having. If so, would it be possible for you to repost just that part?

And if you want "Clen" and me to just go away, I will, and "Clen" can do as he chooses.

Robert Ingle said...

I don't think, "Take up your cross and follow me" will EVER be culturally relevent.

Actually, Clen, I disagree. I think it *can* be culturally relevent if interpreted properly in the proper context.

Anonymous said...

Clearly I've struck a nerve and I appologize. I have passion for lost souls as Paul did. Paul NEVER compromised the Gospel though. He didn't water anything down, you might say that he was a hell fire/brimstone preacher. He even rebuked Peter a few times. Yea he shaved his head, ate some meat and paid a tab, just to get a chance to spread the good news. He even was put on trial for standing strong on the Gospel in the book of Acts. Paul was bold! Rick Warren...a purpose driven fruit cake. Yea, Rick's given a lot of money back to his church but so has Oprah. Have you heard some of the internal studies from within Saddleback and Willow Creek mega churches? No one in the church was growing spiritually. That's from their own study. Bill Hybels was wrong and he's a good man for admitting it. Teaming up with other churches is all well and good...IF the spirit is leading it.(Like the Kingdom series) Mike Stephens at Burnt Hickory is a great pastor that preaches with passion and conviction. There are some great churches around here traditional and contemporary that are proclaiming the Gospel. I'll duck outta hear now. I usually don't blog but I saw your question and I tried to paint a bigger picture.

Anyone make it to FBCW's men's conference this year? I think there were around 15-16K men there including both weekends. Awesome time!

Roy! What's your professional opinion on The Shack?

Robert Ingle said...

Roy! What's your professional opinion on The Shack?

I actually read it upon C.A.'s recommendation on this very blog. I don't have a professional opinion on it as my profession is software development. But my personal opinion was that it was *awesome*.

Unknown said...

Clen - I honestly feel that you have some bitterness and anger issues to sort through. Rick Warren is a man of God who has done extraordinary things for the Kingdom of God. Your critical spirit is beginning to open my eyes to some of the comments you have made here. Perhaps you should pick up "It Came from Within" by Andy Stanley. It's the self-proclaimed "mature Christians" who are typically the most damaging and contradictory to God's plans.

Robert Ingle said...

Oh yeah. the lost comment was about the can of worms that Clen was potentially opening. I guess it will remain closed.

BYW, I apologize to any of your readers who might have been offended by my "Modest Is Hottest" column. I can be irreverent sometimes.

Robert Ingle said...

Correction of my previous comment:

*BTW*, I apologize to any of your readers who might have been offended by my "Modest Is Hottest" comments. I can be irreverent sometimes and I am frankly surprised that you didn't remove it.